Insights on Luke with Rev. Dr. Shelly Matthews - Part 2 of 2

Watch the video here or on Vimeo.com here.

Earlier this year, Rebecca Trefz from the Dakotas Conference communications staff, had a conversation with Rev. Dr. Shelly Matthews, about her commentary on Luke, volumes 1 and 2, in the Wisdom Commentary Series. This video is Part 2 of that conversation. View Part 1 here.

Rebecca Trefz: I asked you to consider kind of in that section chapters 17 through 22, that's where we'll be in our journey after Easter in terms of this year long journey. You had some interesting examples you were talking about the widow's mite or the, I think you mentioned the Levite marriage and children of the resurrection and that.

Shelly Matthews: Yes, yes, yes, yes. So the widow's mite is in Luke 21. And again, this is a place, well, we do agree with, it has been majority scholarship that Jesus is praising the woman for giving all she has, right? There is a guy, I mean, there has been interpretation, people who want to do economic critique actually have tried to say that Jesus is not critiquing the widow, but she's critiquing the temple officers, the temple treasury for demanding such offerings from the poor. But we actually think that Jesus is praising the widow for giving all she has. But then we turn to a little bit again how this message could be used in a harmful way and how it could be used in a good way.

And so I'll just read a little bit if I can. For example, that is, you know, this question of self-giving and we raise it a lot. it, mean, self-giving is a virtue in Christianity, but certainly is more and more people from minoritized positions have come into Christianity, they've begun to ask, well, is the self-giving only asked of us and that people who aren't self-giving are keeping their power? So we advise here that in all instances of self-giving, you've got to think about the context to see whether it should be affirmed or not. And here we say, for example, “we know of televangelists and other religious hucksters who prey on vulnerable poor people attempting to convince and that one more donation will lead to blessings from God and use of the story to persuade people who are poor to donate money in this context would be right, bad. But alternately, we recognize that many people who are poor exhibit generosity in measures that vastly exceed those of wealthier persons. Such readers might see in this story affirmation for their practices of living lightly on the earth in comparison and in solidarity with others and recognize, in contrast, how the practices of those who are wealthy often reflect the greed of the consumer practices and superficiality of their piety”. So we go there and then we point out, this is something I had learned as I was working on this story. There's a very similar story also told in Judaism in a rabbinical text of a woman who offers to the priest—and he first refuses it—but then he gets a dream that he needs accept it because this gift is in essence was an offering of her own life so he needs to take it. So, we've got a Jewish example and then even more interesting there is a Buddhist text very similarly where a poor widow offers two coins and is praised for that.

So we see across religious traditions this idea that people of minimal means contributing all they have are witnessing, I guess, to the message of their faiths. And at that point, I think it's kind of nice to see a piece of our gospel that is intersecting with Asian traditions, with Jewish traditions, and that there's a sort of common message there that we can draw from. That's Luke 21, that's right before he begins the temple teaching.

Levirate marriage is, I don't know, you'd have to ask me what you want to know about this one. This is one that is told in all the gospels, in this, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, that the Sadducees are trying to trick Jesus. And so they put up this scenario, okay, a brother has married and he dies, and so then the wife goes to his next brother who dies, and then she goes to the next brother who dies, and then she goes to the next brother who dies. You whose wife will she be? And they’re asking it as a trick question because the Sadducees don't believe in resurrection anyway. We do notice from paying attention to gender in the text that it is kind of a sexist example, right? I mean, you know, using a woman for a laugh really in a punchline, in a joke. So Luke has put the story that way. But Jesus's response is interesting and in Luke, there's this particular piece of it where he says, “Those who belong to this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy of a place in that age and in the resurrection of the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage. Indeed, they cannot die anymore because they are like the angels and are children of God, being children of the resurrection.” That's a little different than the answer in other places, but essentially Luke here is a puzzle that Jesus is here actually privileging celibacy, not choosing to be married. If you don't get married in this life, you're already like the angels, which is puzzling. And, I mean, I don't know what to say except that the early church had various views of whether people should marry or not. I mean, including apostle Paul, right? In first Corinthians seven, “I wish that you all could remain as I am, meaning celibate.” And we think some of that is because they anticipated the end of the world, right? So why bother? But also, in the understanding of sexuality, marriage, and procreation that was dominant in that day, that sexual practice and procreation were considered things that made you like the animals and not having sex made you like the angels because in heaven, you live in some sort of spiritual body where you don't have desire or physicality. So I mean, it's a puzzling response. It's one that is puzzling for congregations, think. And we muse in our commentary on and kind of bemoan, I would say, or lament that the New Testament, for all of its teachings that are rich in life giving, of course, and saving, does not really have a, I would just say, a healthy view of marriage and sexuality in, know, right, celibacy is better. It'd be better if you wouldn't have to get married, right? You know, it's not a very pastoral answer in, you communities where people wish to have lifelong partners. But it's a place where we can say that the context of that day was different than ours and also that there was you know sort of a back and forth argument in various texts about whether to marry or not. It's only Luke that seems to have this hint that it would be better just not to marry at all right? If you don’t, you're already like the angels in heaven. Matthew and Luke I think a little better. I'm sorry Matthew and Mark and John right he has the wedding at Cana.

Rebecca Trefz: I mean now I'm kind of just sort of opening up because these are really interesting. When you think about other stories or the texts, there, were there any that you flagged that you were, you were hoping that we would talk about today or you'd have a chance to share?

Shelly Matthews: Well, and actually, I've written about this for Bible Today, which is, guess it's a literature, again, another Catholic periodical, but there is one and I learned, it fascinated me because it was just something I'd never realized before. But that goes back to Luke 12. we're okay. So it is that Mr. Bigger Barnes parable, right? There's this guy, he's wealthy and then he's going to replace the Barnes he already has with Bigger Barnes. that is a critique of this selfish wealth. And there is a line in it. I mean, in the parable, the man is talking to himself. He's like, I'm going to build these barns. I, I, I. And if you notice it, he uses the first-person singular like 10 times in a row. You know, my barns, my barns. I, I, I. You know, it's all me. And certainly, early hearers would have laughed at what a fool he was because sort of community, I mean, was more important than individuality in those days. Here it is, I just actually got the text: “And he thought to himself, what should I do? For I have no place to store my crops. I will do this. I will pull down my barns. I will store my grain and I will say to my soul, soul, have, you know, all these goods, eat…” So it's like me, me, me. And of course, Jesus criticizes that, right? And, you know, where your treasure is there, your heart will be. But then he goes on, this is something I learned, again, writing this commentary. That is a setup for Luke's version of consider the lilies, right? You know, don't worry about what you eat or what you will wear. Consider the ravens, they neither sow nor reap or gather into barns. and then consider the lilies, right? No, wait, yeah, consider the ravens, da, da, da, da. And then consider the lilies, how they grow, they neither toil nor spin, right? But Solomon in all his glory was not as great as any of that. What I had never noticed before is that when you consider the ravens, they never sown nor reap nor gather into barns. And then consider the lilies who do not spin or weave. Those are the responsibilities of the youth in the villages, if you will, that is the men had to sow and reap and gather into barns, right? That was their job, the farming. And the women had to spin, right? They had to make clothes, right? And those are the gendered jobs of both men and women in village life to keep the social structure of the village going. And so if you think of it that way, Jesus is really offering a challenge by saying, use examples of people who don't do the stuff you're supposed to do. And you can see that as a challenge. I mean, you understand A, why some people didn't like Jesus, right? You know, we're always, we can be puzzled. Why did people not like Jesus, right? He was loving and merciful. But if he's going around to villages and stirring up young people by telling them, quit farming, quit making clothes, that would have, you know, caused a little tension. But then also I think it does open up. It's an example in Luke where you have a challenge to social roles, particularly if you feel locked into that role, right? And there I think the village is, you know, you have no choice. I've got to mow that hay, right? And then it becomes a challenge to, you know, think of a different way of being, getting out of the role that feels that it weighs so heavy on you.

So I love that little story now. I mean, I've always loved that story. Of course, it can be puzzling because if you're, and it might also be a place where Jesus is not addressing truly poor people because don't worry about what you eat or what you'll wear. mean, if you are really worried about what you eat or what you'll wear, it might not be the best text to preach on for people who are in such needy places. But this idea of, I mean, certainly many of us who have middle-class lives, like we build up these anxieties about things. I've always loved it as a way to think through what is truly important versus what we're anxious about. But this idea that, you know, he's even challenging, you know, the saying is challenging the established role.I like that and then that's all built in with this, you know critique of consumerism because of this Mr. Bigger Barns guy.

Rebecca Trefz: Well, and it's, I mean, immediately thought of for me, was calling too of when you sense that God is calling you to something outside of what is safe or familiar or expected.

Shelly Matthews: Yes, yes, exactly. Right.

Rebecca Trefz: You know, and I mean, and so what does that, kind of challenge and invitation, I think is pretty profound to kind of consider.

Shelly Matthews: Yes, and that weaving in where your treasure is there, your heart will be also, is kind of, that is the conclusion, both of the parable of the guy with the big barns, know, those who store up treasure for themselves are not rich toward God. And then the lilies and the ravens ends with, right, don't be afraid little flock, it is God's good pleasure to give you the kingdom and then, you know, sell your possessions where your treasure is also your heart. So that's one of my now very favorite passages the Gospel of Luke, that whole sermon.

Rebecca Trefz: Well I think also I go back to the very first thing you talked about with Theophilus of again, whether it's a one person or just sort of individuals in this higher class and what that kind of a parable and the lesson and the challenge and the promises that go with it would have stirred in that way too.

Shelly Matthews: Yes, yes. And again, this “bigger barns” concept, mean, even, you know, farmers and where we come from can even catch that you have a good barn, you, you know, tear it down to build a big one. But in the ancient world, I mean, you know, the resources needed for that kind of consumer, you know, I'm just going to throw this one away and build another one. You know, it's astonishing. But it also catches something I think in 21st century consumer life, right?

Yeah. So I'm just trying to think if there's another one we can get some short pithy saying and a few. I don't know the demon ones are interesting. I did learn, you know, about, you know, Jesus is exorcising demons in these passages and that is I don't know if we can go into that. I don't know if younger seminarians learn about Enoch these days. I certainly didn't when I was in seminary 30 years ago, 40 years ago, but we now understand where these demons come from. Because if you read the Hebrew Bible, right, by and large, no demons. You turn to the synoptic gospels, that is Matthew, Mark, Luke. Where are these demons from, right? You know, and Jesus, you know, why is Jesus exercising demons and the demons are talking to Jesus and they're just there, there's no explanation. Like how we got from, you know, Ezra Nehemiah or whatever we think is the last books of the Hebrew Bible to this sort of demon infested land. But there is a story of the origin of demons that is told in the book of Enoch, which is an intertestamental book. That is getting a lot of rage. When you Google Enoch now, there's all sorts of Enoch sites. Some probably a little more reputable than others. Well, because you know, it's a weird and all sorts of things. I'm sure for some Enoch proves, you know, whatever it proves about, you know, modern day events. in it's a myth in the ancient world that, you know, in Genesis four, the giants, the daughters of the earth have intercourse with the giants, no, with the sons of angels, right, sons of God and daughters of the earth, and they produce these giants. But in Enoch, these giants are these bizarre creatures, and they die in the flood, but their souls escape. And those are the demons in the gospels. And they don't have their own bodies anymore, so they inhabit people. And the demons know that Jesus is eventually going to overthrow them. But that's at the end, there's a story in Mark where the demons are talking to Jesus and saying, you can't get rid of us before our time or something like that. But anyway, there are demons also in Luke and they inhabit bodies and they're violent. And of course, Jesus always exorcises them. So he's got the power over demons. Just trying to think of a few things about it. Well, there's that parable of the house where the demon, you know, some guy clears a demon out, but then seven more come back. That is understandable in the sense that the ancient view was that if you had a demon, if you were demon-possessed, you were vulnerable, you were always vulnerable to that. And that is, for instance, why none of the apostles are demon-possessed, right? But there is someone who is demon-possessed in the inner circle according to Luke—Mary Magdalene. She was, according to Luke 8, Jesus has exorcised Mary of seven demons. And I actually don't think that's historical because no one else tells it. I mean, we know that Mary Magdalene from the Gospel of John and the hints we have about her in Matthew and Mark was a leader in the movement. But I do think that Luke, for Theophilus and his bunch, wants to highlight the male apostles roles and kind of set the dominant women to the side.

Rebecca Trefz: Now that's interesting, especially when we often talk about Luke again, lifting up or highlighting or naming women and that. that's an interesting.

Shelly Matthews: Right! And that is one of that tension thing. On the one hand, Luke has those fabulous stories of Mary and I would say even Elizabeth and Mary and Elizabeth together and, Anna. So in those first two chapters, the women who are speaking are quite, you know, powerful characters. But when he tells more stories of women throughout the gospel, you know, there is they tend to be, I would say, more subdued stories. For instance, even in Luke 8 when he says that Mary had seven devils that Luke exorcised, it's kind of suggested all the women who followed Jesus had once been demon-possessed. That's Luke 8. It's Luke 8. I have to find it. But also, for instance, all the other gospels have a story of a woman who anoints Jesus. Mark and Matthew you have this woman anoint Jesus on the head. And it's a very symbolic, important moment after which Jesus says from now on, wherever this story is told, you know, what this woman has done will be told in her memory, which is an amazing. I could teach a whole class on just that, that the woman who anointed Jesus, but Luke does not include that story. And in fact, if you, if you read the gospels and parallels, you can just see Luke is following Mark. That's not a controversial, I think almost all scholars agree with me that Luke has a copy of Mark on his desk. But he's following Mark, Mark 14, and you've got the setup with Judas, and then you've got the arrest afterwards. But Luke sees the story of the woman anointed in Jesus, and I just imagine a pair of scissors like, we're not going to tell that one. And instead of wherever the story is preached, you know, in the whole world, this gospel, story will be told in memory of her, the woman who anointed Jesus on the head, which means she understood both that he was king and also that he was going to die because she anoints him for burial. But in Luke, there is one story of the woman who anointed Jesus, a woman who anointed Jesus, but it's told in Luke 8, and she's a sinner and she's not anointing him on his head like a prophet. She's weeping at his feet and drying his feet with her hair. So that's the example of, you know, he knows stories of women, but if you were, you know, wanting to impress on your daughters. You know, look at this biblical story of a strong woman, right? You know, if you wanted to have that inspire your daughter, you would probably go to Mark 14, not Luke 8. You know, the woman was a sinner. And of course, as with all the stories you can pull, you know, and who, what, you know, she's been forgiven much and there are, can be beautiful things in that story, but it's definitely a woman on the floor, not a woman standing.

Rebecca Trefz: And again, appreciate and I'm listeners here will appreciate too these insights. And again, I appreciate that what you pointed out in the beginning, again, about the way that you all wrote this commentary was to be accessible to folks and to just help kind of think about a new lens. And again, like you said, that doesn't necessarily negate some of the other pieces, but it just makes it richer and deeper, which I think is, again, the power of scripture.

Shelly Matthews: I hope so. And again, even, you know, what sometimes we say things that people might just say, I disagree with that. But again, it's not, you know, it's it is we think of it as a conversation tool for preachers who are wanting to do the work of thinking through passages before they go to preach. And of course, any, you know, a lot of voices can make that richer. And I still imagine I still hope preachers are, you know, doing a little work with the text itself. I know there are so many tools now out there and a book might be considered old-fashioned.

Rebecca Trefz: I think it's still a tool that folks use. But again, I also think it's nice to have an introduction like this that kind of helps point them to the book that is written by a real person who also is from the Dakotas.

Shelly Matthews: Yes, I grew up in the Dakotas and I do, I appreciate the farm, you know, the farm things. It's so nice that the gospels are pastoral, right, you in agricultural settings. You know Paul, if you think about it, is mostly a big city guy, person, but the gospels, you know, for people who grew up in the Dakotas, think have a, you know, nice touches, sheep, vineyards.

Rebecca Trefz: Well, Shelly, just thank you. This has been so rich just for me personally, but I also look forward to sharing it with others. And I just really appreciate you taking the time for this. And I'm excited again to find a time, whether it's again at the end of Luke or as we get into Acts, that you might kind of help us bridge into that.

Shelly Matthews: Thank you, thank you for this conversation, Rebecca. I really appreciate the connection still. I know I've been out of the conference for 30 years, which it seems like it's gone in a flash, but I know 30 years is a long time. But, you know, thank you for the chance.

Rebecca Trefz: Yes, well again, I thank you for this time today. It has been wonderful. And but I also I thank you for just the richness of sharing both of these insights, the broad and the and some narrow focus and some things for us to noodle on and look for and learn from. I think that's we'll we'll sign off now and you look forward to our next time together. OK.

Shelly Matthews: Okay, bye bye.